NYC WCT 11 septembre 2001

NYC WTC
Mardi 11 septembre 2001
Version intégrale du débat sur le Debord(el) of ... en 17 chapitres

CHAPITRE IX: Police get vast power of arrest (Tomás Bueno, *** et d'autres)

Message # : 5787 from Tomás Bueno / Police get vast power of arrest
Continuez à discuter le théorème de Gödel, bande de cons. Ça vous maintiendra en sécurité, au moins.

Luiza Chwialkowska
National Post
Tuesday, October 16, 2001
OTTAWA - Canadians could face arrest without warrant and be forced to testify before a judge without charge under sweeping anti-terrorism legislation tabled yesterday by Anne McLellan, the Minister of Justice.
The 171-page omnibus bill introduces unprecedented "preventive arrest" provisions allowing detention of suspected terrorists for up to 72 hours without charge and creates "investigative hearings" to compel material witnesses to disclose information about terrorism to a judge even in the absence of a formal trial.
The legislation -- which aims to "deter, disable and dismantle" terrorist activity -- expands a variety of government powers, ranging from seizing terrorist property to censoring the Internet.
Conceding that provisions such as arrest without a warrant are "basically new" to Canadian law, Ms. McLellan said she would be comfortable defending all the measures before any court as reasonable limits to individual rights.
"No legislation that I am aware of has gone through as rigorous Charter [of Rights and Freedoms] analysis as this," she said at a press conference.
"The Charter does not suggest for a minute that any rights are absolute," she said, noting that Section 1 of the Charter allows for limitations as justified in "free and democratic society."
"People who live in fear of their personal safety cannot live in a free and democratic society," she said.
"Either nothing changed on Sept. 11 or everything changed," said John Manley, Minister of Foreign Affairs and head of a Cabinet committee on national security. Without the controversial arrest power, he said, "It might be impossible to prevent a terrorist activity even if we had information [that it was to occur.]"
In a speech to the House of Commons last night, Jean Chrétien said the law was carefully drafted to respect the Charter, but promised all the same to listen to any criticism that surfaces as committee hearings unfold.
"Terrorists seek to undermine the rule of law and the preservation of human rights," he said. "The real test of our values is how they guide us in times of crisis.
"Quite frankly, in the past as a country we did not always pass that test. We must be vigilant today to make sure that we do not repeat past mistakes."
The bill introduces Canada's first definition of "terrorist activity." It is similar to the definition of terrorism used in British and U.S. laws, and allows the federal Cabinet to draw up a list of proscribed "terrorist groups" on the advice of the Solicitor-General.
The law stops short of criminalizing membership in the groups. Instead, "participating" in or "contributing" to their activities becomes a crime punishable by a maximum of 10 years in prison, even if the nature of the participation consists of otherwise legal activities. Leaders of terrorist groups face life in prison.
Some civil libertarians say the legislation will do little to make Canada safer but it could undermine basic freedoms that help define the country.
"We don't want to turn into a police state. To turn into a police state in the name of liberty is bizarre," said Alan Gold, president of the Ontario Criminal Lawyers Association.
Terrorist activity is defined in the bill as acts taken or threatened for political, religious or ideological purposes that threaten public or national security by killing, seriously harming or endangering a person, causing substantial property damage that is likely to seriously harm people or by interfering with or disrupting an essential service, facility or system.
The definition includes violations of 10 UN anti-terrorism conventions that cover such things as aircraft hijacking, hostage taking, terrorist bombings and protection of nuclear material. To knowingly "facilitate" terrorist activity becomes a crime punishable by 14 years in prison, while instructing anyone to carry out terrorist activities leads to a maximum life sentence.
To knowingly harbour or conceal a terrorist will be punishable by 10 years in prison. Crimes committed for the benefit of terrorist groups will carry a maximum of life in prison. The sentences would be served consecutively.
The bill states plainly that terrorist activity does not include "lawful advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work" that does not seriously harm or kill people. It also does not cover actions taken during an armed conflict in accordance with international law.
Bill Blaikie, the NDP justice critic, said he would reserve judgment on the legislation until he hears expert testimony as to whether the bill "might curtail legitimate dissent."
Vic Toews, the Canadian Alliance justice critic, called the bill "an important first step," but without a complete ban on membership in terrorist groups, it remains "a half measure."
"The bill is an important step forward and certainly reflects many of the issues that our party has been raising in this House, and unfortunately to little avail until the tragic events of Sept. 11," he said in the House of Commons. "It is unfortunate that we could not have moved much quicker in dealing with these issues."
Peter MacKay, the Tory justice critic, said the law "goes a long way to give law enforcement the powers they require," but the arrest and investigative hearings measures gave him "some cause for concern" and should be coupled with careful training of police officers.
Ms. McLellan said that because terrorists operate in isolated cells and because many are ready to die for their cause, the emphasis of the law must be on prevention through investigation and surveillance of terrorist groups and on cutting off their financial support.
Strengthened investigative powers include:
- Allowing arrest without a warrant where police have reasonable grounds to believe the arrest is necessary to prevent an act of terrorism they have reason to believe is about to happen.
- Detaining suspected terrorists without charges for up to 24 hours before facing a judge, and an additional 48 hours with the judge's permission.
- Creating new "investigative hearings," in which a material witness could be compelled to testify before a judge. In order to preserve the right of a person not to incriminate himself, any information could not be used as a basis for proceedings against that person.
- Increasing protections under the Evidence Act for classified evidence used in court proceedings.
- Extending to terrorism investigators electronic surveillance powers already available to police investigating organized crimes and contained in the anti-gang legislation now before the Senate. Police will no longer have to prove a wiretap is a tool of last resort in order to obtain a warrant and the warrant will be valid for one year, up from the current 60 days. The requirement to notify a suspect after surveillance has been concluded can be delayed up to three years from the current one year.
- The Communications Security Establishment, the government agency that monitors foreign communications, would be allowed for the first time to intercept the communications of foreign targets even while they are communicating with Canadians -- a move that would require permission of the Minister of National Defence.
- A new Security of Information Act will replace the Official Secrets Act to impose stronger measures to combat foreign spies.
The bill also ratifies the UN Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Financing and will allow a Federal Court judge to order the seizure and forfeiture of terrorist property. It prohibits making money or financial services available to terrorists or terrorist groups, and denies such groups charitable status under the Income Tax Act.
Money-laundering laws would be amended to authorize the detection of financial transactions that may constitute threats to the security of Canada and allow them to be disclosed to CSIS.
To help enforce the new laws, the number of Federal Court judge positions will be increased by as many as 13 new trial judges and two appeal court judges.
Ms. McLellan said the cost of implementing the laws is unknown since no one knows how many prosecutions may take place. Mr. Manley said more legislation could come as other departments review what they can do to fight terrorism.
10/16/2001 11:44:31

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Message #: 6565 from *** / Reply To #: 5787 / Re: Police get vast power of arrest
Il faut que tu sois CON comme beaucoup de Canadiens pour croire que la police ait un pouvoir en dehors de pouvoir arrêter des gens. Ceux qui discutaient et discutent encore du théorème de Gödel se fichent de ta gueule et de la gueule de toutes les polices de la planète.
10/16/2001 13:54:17

Message #: 6996 from Tomás de novo / Reply To #: 6565 / Et puis ...
...les cons peuvent avoir raison parfois, et tu n'es pas une exception: pourquoi la police devrait-elle s'occuper de ceux qui s'occupent de Gödel?
10/16/2001 15:01:1

Message #: 7203 from *** / Reply To #: 6996 / Re: Et puis...
1-Les cons peuvent avoir raison bien sûr, mais c'est hors sujet.
2- Relis le post. Je n'ai rien dit de tel.
10/16/2001 15:40:35

Message #: 7481 from Tomás / Reply To #: 7203 / Ah, non, mais c'est le comble!
Maintenant, il faut expliquer à *** ce que *** a dit.
Voyons: tu as dit que tu t'en fiches des polices du monde. J'ai dit que tu peux le faire, que tu n'as pas à t'inquiéter, que les polices du monde s'en fichent de ceux qui s'occupent de Gödel.
L'as-tu compris maintenant? Ou y en a vouloir que je dessine?
10/16/2001 16:26:50

Message #: 6651 fromTomás Bueno / Reply To #: 7481 / Félicitations!
Tu as réussi à écrire un message (c'est vrai que pas très long) avec UNE SEULE erreur de ponctuation!
Mais même si tu es un con sans espoir, je suis curieux: à quoi d'autre pourrait servir la police sinon à arrêter les gens? Ou, comme tu m'as dit que tu n'avais pas compris ce qui était parfaitement clair sur ta connerie dans un autre message que j'ai écrit, je te pose la question en termes plus simples: la police est faite pour arrêter les gens, n'est-ce pas? Quoi d'autre voudrais-tu qu'elle fasse?
Je vois que la discussion du théorème de Gödel donne des très grands pouvoirs de raisonnement aux gens, parce que tu dis. C'est dommage qu'elle diminue le sens du ridicule dans la même proportion.
Je t'ai déjà dit, petit: va sù nel limbo fra gli altri bambini, anima sciocca!
10/16/2001 14:08:33

Message #: 7165 from *** / Reply To #: 6651 / Re: Félicitations!
Selon feu Debord, la police aurait réussi à arrêter l'histoire ; arrêter les gens devient subalterne. Lis les "Commentaires", c'est écrit noir sur blanc. C'est probablement le sens de ton post. C'est un sujet pour journalistes. Voyer a raison de dire que Debord écrivait directement pour les salles de rédaction. Tous les journalistes sont debordistes. Ils sont dans le secret des secrets: les frappes aériennes,les sosies de Ben Laden,les coulisses du pouvoir. Ils savent TOUT et rien n'est en dehors de leur omniscience.
Si ce n'est pas le cas, ton post sur la police des Canadiens - on s'en fout et ces enculés ont la police qu'ils méritent - est ridicule.Il était précédé de tes remarques sournoises sur la discussion du théorème de Gödel.Pour discuter de ces sujets il faut avoir des couilles! Si la discussion dépasse tes deux neurones,demande à X.L et C.B de l'aide. A trois, c'est plus facile.
10/16/2001 15:34:12

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Message #: 7636 from Le Canadien en exil / Reply To #: 7165 / Re: Félicitations!
J'ai pensé que si Debord a raison, c'est encore une autre assurance pour toi: si jamais les flics en ont marre d'entendre parler de Gödel (tout est possible, n'est-ce pas?), tu pourras toujours gueuler: "Vous m'arrêtez injustement! Vous vous êtes trompés de personne! Je ne suis pas l'histoire!", avant de rentrer dans le panier à salade.
Ça fera belle figure, je t'assure.
10/16/2001 16:52:45

Message #: 7669 from Metteur en scène / Reply To #: 7636 / Encore mieux
Avant de monter dans le panier à salade, tu y mets un pied (laissant l'autre sur la chaussée, eh, fais gaffe et ne va pas tomber à un moment comme ça), puis tu te tournes vers le public, tu lèves ta tête avec le maximum de dignité et tu déclares gravement: "C'est une erreur. La police devrait arrêter l'histoire, pas moi. Je ne connais pas cette dame, je ne suis pas un complice de l'histoire".
Chic, eh?
10/16/2001 16:58:16

Message #: 7456 from Tomás / Reply To #: 7669 / Re: Félicitations!
"Selon feu Debord, la police aurait réussi à arrêter l'histoire ; arrêter les gens devient subalterne ."
Ah, bon! Et puisque c'est lui qui le dit, tu le crois. J'ai compris, maintenant.
Merci.
10/16/2001 16:22:47

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Index de la version intégrale
CHAPITRE I: Petite désillusion (Anarstrige du coulée et Anonymous)
CHAPITRE II: Request for comments (Tomás Rosa Bueno,*** et Anonymous)
CHAPITRE III: Mise au point (Tomás Bueno, Omar Wisyam, Anonymous, Anarstrige du coulée, *** et d'autres)
CHAPITRE IV: Publicité (Institut de Préhistoire contemporaine, Anonymous, Pavlov et son toutou)
CHAPITRE V: The Reichstag is burning again (Contemporary Prehistory Institute)
CHAPITRE VI: Le protocole des sages de Sion, version 2001.fbi (Coline Ascao)
CHAPITRE VII: Une explication en trois mouvements suivie d'un conseil, pour *** (Tomás Bueno et ***)
CHAPITRE VIII: Le Reichstag brûle à nouveau (Institut de Préhistoire contemporaine, Anarstrige du coulée, Omar Wisyam, *** et quelques autres)
CHAPITRE IX: Police get vast power of arrest (Tomás Bueno, *** et d'autres)
CHAPITRE X: Réponse à Anarstrige / La coquille Saint-Jacques de la théorie (Tomás Bueno et Omar Wisyam)
CHAPITRE XI: Senate Bill on Surveillance Has Broad Support (Tomás Bueno, ***, Anonymous et quelques autres)
CHAPITRE XII: Le tartuffe dans la vitrine / A propos des commentaires d'Anarstrige (Tomás Bueno, Anarstrige du coulée, Anonymous, *** et alt.)
CHAPITRE XIII: L'étourdi Bueno et sa dialectique burlesque (Anarstrige du coulée et Anonymous)
CHAPITRE XIV: Le Grand Khan lit avec attention un manuscrit chinois - pour le vaillant Anarstrige (Tomás Rosa Bueno et Anonymous)
CHAPITRE XV: Une question (et une précision) pour Anarstrige (Xavier Lucarno, Anarstrige du coulée)
CHAPITRE XVI: Merci Pinochet de nous avoir débarassé d'ALLENDE (Anonymous et Guy Debord himself)
CHAPITRE XVII: Épilogue de la discussion avec Bueno autour des évènements du 11 septembre 2001 (Anarstrige du coulée et FC)
EN GUISE DE POSTFACE (Le porte-plume - aka Tomás Bueno, Anonymous, ***, Coline Ascao et Omar Wisyam)
Textes de base du débat
NYC WTC, Ben, 11 septembre 2001.
The Reichstag is burning again!, Institut de Préhistoire Contemporaine (redivivus), 25 septembre 2001.
Le Reichstag brûle à nouveau! (Version française du texte "The Reichstag is burning again!").
Ad usum homo contestataire, Anarstrige du Coulée, 1 octobre 2001.
Index de NYC WTC, mardi 11 septembre 2001 / Version intégrale.
Archives du Debord of Directors.

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